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Author Topic: 12 General Rules for Training  (Read 37420 times)
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zyclonenuz
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C'est la vie


« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2011, 11:10:22 AM »

Now, going back to the video posted by edisonk9, he selected that video. We did not force him to post a video. He volunteered to post (and might I add, begged me not to delete) a video of a 5-month old golden retriever which he himself admitted that he trained with an electronic collar. To me, using an e-collar on that type of a dog is absolutely ridiculous. Was there anything in the demeanor or character of the dog when the trainer got him that would have necessitated the immediate use of an e-collar? I seriously doubt it. It's kind of rare for a golden to exhibit overly dominant or aggressive behavior at less than 5 months of age. Other training methods are available to teach basic obedience without resorting to an e-collar and they would work just as well. Maybe not as fast as an electronic collar, but then, if speed of training was the object then dare I say that kind of presupposes that there seems to be some financial considerations involved? Was there a need for a fast turnover? If so, where then does the welfare of the dog rank in the list of priorities of the trainer? I personally would not trust a trainer that does not place the welfare of my dog at the top of his priorities.

Couldn't have said it any better. Nice one Atty Jen. ayos! ayos!
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“If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared” - Niccolo Machiavelli

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« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2011, 11:10:22 AM »

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DogCrazy
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"Primum non nocerum"


« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2011, 12:41:56 PM »

Excerpts from an interview with Dr Nicholas Dodman (author of "12 General Rules for Training")  ayos!

Dr. Nicholas Dodman on Dog Behavior and New Training Techniques
What does it take to be the leader of the pack?

By Sophia Yin and Claudia Kawczynska

Bark: What do you feel is the place for punishment or negative re-enforcement in treating behavioral problems?

Dodman: I think that the direct punishment-based techniques are outmoded, a thing of the past, and should be avoided. Nobel Prize winners Lorenz, Tinbergen and Von Frisch might have disagreed on some points, but the three of them were all in agreement that punishment teaches a dog nothing. All it does is to teach a dog how to avoid the punishment. Which is not the same as teaching the dog what to do. There is no learning, other than learning avoidance of certain actions. You don’t need punishment to teach either dogs or children. I don’t believe in the concept of “sparing the rod and spoiling the child,” or sparing the chain-jerking and spoiling the dog. All the techniques that we use in the clinic are 100 percent motivational—we do not use any coercive techniques. I work on the theory that if you can train a killer whale to launch itself out of a swimming pool, roll on its side and urinate into a small plastic cup, given only a whistle and a bucket of fish, without a choke chain, then you don’t need those confrontational techniques with dogs.

As for those prong collars … I sometimes say to clients what John Lennon rudely said about Paul McCarthy—the only thing he did was “Yesterday.” Prong collars are yesterday. There are some trainers, not all trainers, who just seem to know only one thing, and that is how to escalate punishment to reach the desired effect. So they start off with puppies the right way with food motivation. But as soon as the dog reaches a certain age, they go into a slip collar, then a metal choke collar, and if these aren’t having the desired aversive effects, they escalate up to a prong collar; some even graduate higher, to electricity. What you have is a gradation of pain. And the pain is designed with the theory “you teach them to do something, and if they don’t do it, you hurt them.” Konrad Lorenz said that science and know-how aren’t enough in dog training; patience is the vital stuff. I find that non-confrontational techniques are more appreciated by owners who often aren’t of the disposition to want to hurt their animals to make them do anything.


Full article here: http://www.thebark.com/content/interview-dr-nicholas-dodman

IMHO, a properly fitted and properly used prong collar is an acceptable training tool, PROVIDED that the corrections given are fair - meaning that it is already clear to the dog what it should and shouldn't do prior to the correction being given (the dog should already have been given basic training and that training has been proofed). But of course it is a training TOOL, used with the goal of eventually getting to the point where it may be dispensed with altogether.

********

Dr Dodman also had this to say about Cesar Millan (he's obviously not a big fan):  grin1
“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”

Full article here: http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 12:54:00 PM by DogCrazy » Logged

THE GREATNESS OF A NATION AND ITS MORAL PROGRESS CAN BE JUDGED BY THE WAY ITS ANIMALS ARE TREATED - Mahatma Gandhi

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DogCrazy
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« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2011, 01:02:40 PM »

@zyclonenuz and sky - Slightly  off topic ... but you may find the urbandawgs article interesting.  Grin

Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 01:03:50 PM by DogCrazy » Logged

THE GREATNESS OF A NATION AND ITS MORAL PROGRESS CAN BE JUDGED BY THE WAY ITS ANIMALS ARE TREATED - Mahatma Gandhi

"Character is so largely affected by associations, that we cannot afford to be indifferent as to who or what our friends are." - M Hurlburd
sky
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« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2011, 01:06:48 PM »

@zyclonenuz and sky - Slightly  off topic ... but you may find the urbandawgs article interesting.  Grin

Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

yup the article is interesting zyclonenuz  read it ok un article  thanks doc
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DogCrazy
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« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2011, 01:10:41 PM »

yup the article is interesting zyclonenuz  read it ok un article  thanks doc

You're welcome  Grin  It's interesting to see the shifting trends and philosophies in training. As owners/handlers/trainers we really have to do our best to keep ourselves updated - even the trainers we consult with keep attending seminars and reading books. The learning never really stops.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 01:14:34 PM by DogCrazy » Logged

THE GREATNESS OF A NATION AND ITS MORAL PROGRESS CAN BE JUDGED BY THE WAY ITS ANIMALS ARE TREATED - Mahatma Gandhi

"Character is so largely affected by associations, that we cannot afford to be indifferent as to who or what our friends are." - M Hurlburd
edisonk9
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« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2011, 01:19:26 PM »

mali pala spelling ko ng Fare-----Fair pala grin1 grin1 grin1 diko mabura e.... ROFL ROFL ROFL :rofl:natangal yata ang modify ayaw yata pabura...pasensya bobo ako sa spelling... ROFL ROFL ROFL
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 01:22:09 PM by edisonk9 » Logged

zyclonenuz
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C'est la vie


« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2011, 01:43:54 PM »

@zyclonenuz and sky - Slightly  off topic ... but you may find the urbandawgs article interesting.  Grin

Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html


Interesting. Thanks Doc Grin
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“If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared” - Niccolo Machiavelli

edisonk9
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« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2011, 09:32:20 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAG4p80XJMM

hindi padin ito ang buong video gusto ko makita yung before and after yung sobrang harot nya pano mo kokontrol yon pano sya nagrereact sa e-colar or pano sya mangisay sa takot twing makukuryente ..meron ka vid non ?  Grin


Hindi naman nagisay yan nun time na na train ko, bigay ko nalang po sayo number ng may ari kay troy at kung masaya o takot po ba nila na papasunod si troy...salamat po...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 09:34:40 PM by edisonk9 » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2011, 08:17:12 PM »

You're welcome  Grin  It's interesting to see the shifting trends and philosophies in training. As owners/handlers/trainers we really have to do our best to keep ourselves updated - even the trainers we consult with keep attending seminars and reading books. The learning never really stops.

@DogCrazy -- Maybe you could recommend some good training books or dog psychology books for us to read? I agree that learning never stops talaga.
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edisonk9
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« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2011, 01:44:14 PM »

Ako po ay humihingi ng paumanhin sa inyong lahat at pag papatawad kung ako man po ay nakagawa ng pagkakamali sa inyo. Ngyare na po ang pagakakamali ko at hindi ko na po ito mababalik pa…ako po nakakatangap na ng problema sa ngayon una po ang pagka sira ng pamilya ko at pagkawala po ng trabahong pinaka mamahal ko ang pagtuturo po ng aso, sana po ay mabigyan po ninyo ako ng pangalawang pagkakataon na makabalik sa trabahong alam ko at mahal ko sana po ay mapatawad po ninyo ako sa kabila po ng pagiging arogante ko nadala lang po ako sa mga problema ko sa personal kong buhay na diko po inasahan na pati po ang trabaho ko ay maapektuhan…nawala po saken ka agad ang pamilya ko at ang trabaho ko ang bilis ko po sumikat at ang bilis ko din po nawala sa mundong ginagalawan ko. Nakakahiya man pong sabihin at paalam sa lahat pero kung ito po ang paraan para mawala po ang sakit ng ka looban ko ay gagawin ko para sarili ko at pra na rin po sa mga anak ko na maitaguyod ko sila sa abot po ng aking makakaya…hangad ko po ang inyong pagpapatawad.
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shakydoo
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Calm assertive is the key...


« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2011, 11:26:29 AM »

Siguro kailangan mo na dagdagan ang kaalaman mo sa pamamagitan ng mga bagong paraan na isasama mo na ang may ari ng aso sa training
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juris159
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« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2011, 09:17:53 PM »

Siguro kailangan mo na dagdagan ang kaalaman mo sa pamamagitan ng mga bagong paraan na isasama mo na ang may ari ng aso sa training

I agree with Shakydoo:) Better talaga when training the dog, kelangan kasama rin yong owner during training. Mas siguradong safe ang dog at much better kung talagang involved ang owner sa training, hindi yong nanonood lang siya. You teach the owner how to train the dog instead of waiting pa to turn over the dog after few training sessions.  I have a friend na pina trained niya yong GS niya but after na turn over sa kanya yong dog...kinagat ng dog niya yong trainer. Bakit kaya?   
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